Ears To You: new Elementary arc explores the id of Gareth Lestrade

Enter Inspector Gareth Lestrade, twenty-first century edition. Elementary, the Americanized modern day version of The Adventures Of Sherlock Holmes, has taken its time exploring the supporting characters from the original Holmes mythology. Perennial sidekick Lestrade wasn’t even introduced in the CBS series until the second season, and even then it appeared to be a one-off; with Sherlock having transplanted to New York City and Watson having been made an American woman, Holme’s fellow British characters have thus far had a light footprint. But the last few episodes have brought back Lestrade for a character arc which adds yet another twist to how Elementary had reimagined Arthur Conan Doyle’s original work.

With Lestrade no loner having Sherlock around to solve his cases, he’s fallen into a rough patch. First he’s disgraced by a criminal he couldn’t put away, then when he finally lands what appears to be a respectable security job for a high profile public figure, it’s ultimately revealed that he’s acting merely as a pimp for his boss’ promiscuous ways. When that gig predictably collapses, Lestrade finds himself unemployed – and ends up crashing at Sherlock’s apartment for an extended period.

The latest episode, Ears To You, reveals that Lestrade has lost his mojo entirely. He’s drinking behind the backs of Holmes and Watson, he’s gotten mugged, and he’s suffering from such a lack of confidence that he’s unwilling to take any of the jobs being offered to him. After all, without Sherlock’s help, how will he manage to hold down any detective gig? He ultimately brings himself out of his funk by successfully hunting down his mugger, giving him enough confidence to accept a job and be on his way.

But while Lestrade serves as a comic foil here as much as he has anywhere else in the various Holmes incarnations over the centuries, he’s become far more complex and human here in season two of Elementary. That’s in contrast to the recent Sherlock Holmes movies in which Lestrade was little more than punchline fodder. Even the sophisticatedly cinematic Sherlock television series on the BBC, which has fleshed out the complexity of Holmes and Watson in perhaps the more textured detail of any Holmes interpretation, still treats Lestrade as black and white in comparison. Even Doyle never bothered to give him a first name in the original novels, simple referring to him as Inspector G. Lestrade.

Elementary has made a point of subverting the Holmes supporting characters at every turn: Watson is a woman, Moriarty and Irene Adler turned out to be the same person, and Ms. Hudson is a transvestite. But while some of those moves have ultimately felt stunt-like, Lestrade has been made more human than ever. He’s even been given a first name. The question now, with just a few episodes left in the season, is when we’ll get to see Gareth Lestrade again.

StableyTimesSquareLogo Ears To You: new Elementary arc explores the id of Gareth Lestrade
Will Stabley is the Founder and Senior Editor of Stabley Times.
StableyTimesSquareLogo Ears To You: new Elementary arc explores the id of Gareth Lestrade
65 comments
 Carter Was Fridged
Carter Was Fridged

Nothing about Jim Caviezel seems disingenuous or dishonorable. In spite of his total understanding of the entertainment business, one has to wonder how he feels about what happened to the Carter character and how his friend, Taraji P. Henson was treated. Will he be the next actor who leaves the drama, by choice or at the whim of the writers?  Nolan and Plageman could remedy the terrible mess they have created by killing Reese and having him join Carter in "flashback heaven."  Afterwards, the show could  evolve into pre-pubescent scifi hell, with Shaw as the star, and total eradication of the stench of character development normalcy. I stopped watching after Endgame, but you can bet I would tune in for some "crow eating mastery."  After more than two months, people are still angry about Carter's death, and rightly so. Cancellation would be merciful. for this fop fest.

TraceyHampton
TraceyHampton

this is a good observation of POI I sometime  wonder if they will survive the 2 half the season it going  to all about the machine and crazy root so they really jump the shark on this one the probably wont get alot of number an where does fusco fit in here. that my man and carter was my girl.. As devoted fan we are allow to have our favs characters i love reese  finch ,bear too but those other 2 I dont seem to jel  with them as much. i  could care less about them. PS  I WAS LOOKING AT COMIC CON 2012 THEY HAVE AMY ACKER ON STAGE @PANEL  CAST SHE WASNT REGULAR CAST MEMBER YET .... SO THAT TELL ME THAT (HE )NOLAN TO PUT AS REGULAR CAST MEMBER IN 2012.before he made the announcement last summer @comic con   san diego. he hoodwink all of by saying taraji wasnt leaving the show he such a liar.

Post Script
Post Script

Good write up.  They totally ruined it for me with the death of Carter.  I knew then that things would never get back on track and that I had hoped in vain that they would when she was murdered.  It was like they intentionally and brazenly killed off everything good about the show, marking the finality of this act with Det. Joss Carter's death, and then laughed about it.  I read their subsequent interviews immediately after watching her murder, which basically confirmed this being the case.  What a horrible way to treat fans, and what a sad way for this show to decline so quickly.  


A couple of points of contention:  

1)  The South Park thing is in no way on par with how badly they handled Ms. Henson and her character's exit.  South Park show is literally an adult cartoon comedy, and the interviews I've seen with the creators were ones in which they were always joking around and never serious.  You knew neither to take them seriously nor their show, and that was the point.  What they did was cheap, yes, but then so is South Park in general. Person of Interest was a serious suspense/crime drama made by people who were taking themselves seriously, and they wanted you to do that too.  So, there's really no comparison when the "joke" ends up being on the audience in these two cases.  One show, along with its show runners, is all about jokes, so you could forgive it, while the other is not.  

2)   I think there's a third alternative to the actress asking to leave (which I don't believe because the producers said it wasn't true, they said they told her she'd have a limited role from the start) or her having "sour grapes" about being kicked out in favor of her replacements.  I think she was hurt, but she was also a professional.  She did what she was supposed to do and went out with a smile and her head held high, even if she did not like it.  I think she may have been encouraged to put a favorable spin on her exit by saying that she was okay with leaving and that she preferred films to television so everything was fine and dandy.  And while that well likely may be true, they seemed keen on her selling those points because they plastered some sort of telecast of her answering questions and pressing that story and how much people should "keep watching" afterward.  I can't recall that ever happening before with a show, and all the while Ms. Henson was kind, professional, and sweet. 

Now that I've said what I have to say about those two things, I'll just say that I completely agree with you about how they've ruined this show beyond repair.  The new additions don't work well, or at least they don't work well as main/regular characters, and the plot lines are beyond ridiculous.  I'm very much in favor of letting season three be its last.  The producers have already blown this cow's legs, udders, and face off.  Time to put this old sow out of her misery.  It would be kind.   


Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

Palmer's got it right.  Can't stand Shaw and since her introduction to the show, the writing and the characters have gone flat.  The only saving grace is Root, but I'm not liking what they've morphed her into.

Just a fan
Just a fan

I loved POI since the beginning and I love it even more now. For me the show is not jumping the shark but progressing. Season 2 was a different animal than Season 1 and Season 3 is different than Season 2. Isn't it great that a show can evolve like that? I mean at the heart of the show is an all seeing, all knowing A.I. how do you not explore that and leave it just as a plot device? Funny thing is when the show first started many people complained the show of being too simple, procedural...like any other CBS show. For me the recent episodes have been some of the best that POI has done. Even the leading web-sites which have been recapping and reviewing the show from the beginning have all said that POI has been stellar this season. 


I think Nolan always planned to tell the story of an A.I. The story of it's growth and evolution, how it affects the people it brings together and how it is affected by them. But perhaps POI being a CBS procedural he couldn't jump head first into it. So he took baby steps and set it up for two and a half season before finally delving into it.


Nolan said in an interview that POI dealt with two worlds, the Machine conspiracy: Control, ISA, Decima, Vigilance and the other world being that of HR, Elias, the Mafia, etc. He said to move on to the next chapter he needed to close one before. Now since according to TPH she only wanted to do POI for 2 to 3 seasons. Perhaps she would have exited the show at the end of season 3. Usually when a character leaves a show he/she gets one big episode to go out all gun blazing, but Nolan gave Carter an entire arc starting form the middle of Season 2 and the first half of Season 3 being driven pretty much by her. Carter was already a great character but this arc gave her more depth, complexity and a chance to be an even bigger badass. And she went out bringing down not only one of the biggest enemies of the series but also having affected all the characters even Fusco and Shaw. Now if that is not a great exit I don't know what is.


Carter's exit not only helped close one chapter but it gave the show a new direction. Reese never really cared about the Machine, like some viewers he perhaps only saw it as source of information and now pretty much loathes it. But now that the show is exploring the implications of an A.I. the show has to find a way for Reese to re-connect to the Machine itself and see how important it's purpose is. For a non-believer like Reese to find that connection could be the chance for great storytelling.


I however respect all opinions. And if some people who started watching POI for the procedural nature of the story and wanted it to stay like that without changing or evolving, they might not like the current storyline. And I think they have every right not to watch it. However they must respect other opinions and the fact that many people do like the new direction and want to continue watching it. So if you want to stop watching it, do that but don't keep on bashing the show for not being the same as season 1 and wishing it be cancelled, that is just mean spirited and petty. Oh and I love Root and Shaw as much as I loved Carter. Sorry for the very long rant.

Una
Una

If you want a drab, 'saving the world' in the nick-of-time procedural, please go back to rewatching CSI or switching to pretty much any other CBS show...


Some people just cant wrap their heads around a show willing to take the risks of evolution. This is one network 'procedural' that actually has a heart. This show has never been about Reese and Finch alone, though they carry it...which explains the ho-hum first half of season 1. The characters needed to be established in a very procedural format. Once the over-arching stories started, this show has gotten better and better. At the heart of this show is The Machine; It has always been about the sentinent AI.


As for people who 'left' the show after Henson's departure, good riddance to y'all. Too bad you couldnt realise the show is bigger than all its characters. I came to the show because of Michael Emerson, but I will stay with the show even if he is not there anymore(though thats the unlikeliest of scenarios given he is the admin). The show has gotten that good. 


To think I said "meh, its all right" to one of my friends while watching Season 1. You are right, it aint the same show anymore, it is so much better. If a show that has jumped the shark can provide us with scenes like the one between Emerson and Rubinek in the vault in the last episode, please jump the sharp even more POI. I love it!

POI Fan
POI Fan

If you want to watch a "case of the week" show, there are 8 other dramas on CBS. Some of us like to watch a show with a deep mythology and a larger story that is constantly evolving. The creators of the show have had this mapped out from the beginning and have stated they had no desire to make a boring show that simply "spun it's wheels" for 200 episodes.

ScorpioEnigma09
ScorpioEnigma09

I love how people who aren't happy with the show are accused of being untrue POI fans.  It's only a TV show.  I understand that some fans like where the show is headed, and that's their right but not everyone is and the ratings prove it.  This time last year POI had it's highest ratings ever and now I wouldn't be surprised if viewer numbers dip below 10 million.  Nolan created this show, fine but without the viewers he has no show.  So it would seem to me he wouldn't want to piss us off, but that's exactly what he's done.  This isn't progression, IMO.  You can progress the show without losing what made the show so amazing to begin with.  If this is what Nolan always had in mind, he should've started with this.  Because now people understandably feel betrayed and deceived.


I was done with POI when Carter died, if Taraji wasn't on the show I wouldn't have even given POI a second look.  But from what I'm hearing about where the show is now, it probably wouldn't have entertained me even if she was still around.  I still would've watched to support Taraji but the love that I had for the show is gone.

DeborahSaunders
DeborahSaunders

I disagree with this assessment, I think Person of Interest is doing just fine.  I was shocked and saddened with Carter's death, but it was very compelling tv.  I think the last few epps have been top notch, and look forward to the continuation of this great series.

This article is garbage
This article is garbage

This article is terrible and oh so wrong it makes me want to punch a wall. Person of Interest is the greatest show on TV and has always been, ever since the middle of season 1.

I can't even begin to explain it because you're so deep in denial that it'd be a waste of time.

You are just wrong, on so many levels. Obviously the pissed-off fans are those who can't get over Carter's death. Those who want to watch a boring number-of-the-week show with no story-arcs and character developments.

LT
LT

Jennifer Gorman is either a super fan who can't handle criticism or paid by the people at CBS or Person of Interest. She shows up here in all the comments and the ones on Facebook.

Chill out, Jennifer. Some people don't like the show now. Write your own article about how much you love the show. I'm sure you'll get plenty of support.

Anyway, thank you for this article. I had to personally abandon the show after Carter died, but I honestly didn't expect the episodes to be this badly written after her departure.

Certainly shows don't want to stay the same and get stale, but this is a paradigm shift in which the show looks almost nothing like the show I invested in for over two years. That is surprising. I've kept up with the show loosely and they're even recycling the same lines. That's sadly bad writing, which is disappointing given the excellent quality of the show for so long.

It's not over for POI. They absolutely can turn this around, but it seems like the machine (which personally was the weakest link of the second half of season two) may be the feature for the rest of the season and that's no good since the personification of the machine was something that always seemed hard to swallow IMO.

I've always liked both Root and Shaw, but they make bad sole headliners. They're best playing against both Finch and Reese. Unfortunately for Fusco, I'd be surprised if he gets more than a few joke lines. From Chapman's latest article, it looks like not much time will be devoted to him for the rest of this season.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

Not really much of a review. There are two types of POI fans - those who want the same story reiterated over and over, and those than want to see story progression. The show never planned on staying static, so people who preferred it that way are suddenly surprised when the stories the show has been building to actually developed into something. You can see the seeds through the whole series. It's beyond frustrating that turning a blind eye to this progression means the show is somehow wrong. 


There are fans who knew something like this was coming the whole time and are thrilled with how good it's been the last 5 episodes. Just because show isn't doing what you want it to do doesn't mean the show is wrong. You're allowed your opinion, but we're allowed ours as well. And it's not opinion to know that all of these storylines have not only been recurring, but have told us that things were coming to a head and that choices will be made and prices will be paid. The first episode - Finch straight admits Reese and he would probably wind up actually dead this time - why would anyone working with them be exempt from the same fate?


Seriously, if you go back and watch the show again from the beginning - all those threads, all those plot bunnies they'd been planting since the very beginning - well, they've come to fruition. Perhaps you shouldn't have just disregarded the parts you didn't like in favor of the things you did. It's the definition of willful ignorance here. People have chosen to ignore the (not at all subtle) signs, and are now yelling at the injustice of their choice in doing do.


And this review fans the flames. 


Really it's too bad, but hopefully those of us who are loving what's happening won't pay the price by losing the show.

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

Thank you thank you thank you for finally putting into words how so many of us are feeling. I've been a huge fan since day one and I feel like I'm watching a totally different show now. Jonathan Nolan and his huge ego are running this show into the ground. 2.5 years into a show you can't suddenly change direction and say "now the show will be about this." It's a big f u to the loyal viewers. I'm done. Nothing about this show entertains me anymore.

JamiP35
JamiP35

Bill, you have given voice to what so many former loyal viewers of POI are now thinking and believing.  The phrase 'jump the shark' so aptly applies to this last season.  I started with the show from day one and was thrilled to find an intelligent, articulate staff of writers who seemed to understand and empathize with viewers who are so sick of 'Reality' shows and hungered for a character driven show with substance. 


With the addition of the comic-book type character played by one of the new members of the team, a team which needed nothing except the imagination to expand on some personal background for each, was a total mistake on the part of the show's producers as far as I am concerned.


I think the show is floundering, and for me, it's far too late to make amends to the amazing fans that put POI on the map to begin with.   Thankfully, there is always James Spader to fall back on.  I am switching my focus and my support to a more deserving vehicle.

Lininohio
Lininohio

Thank you so much for this article. With so many of the critics gushing over the new episodes ("The best of the series!") many of the fans have been feeling bewildered. Within the fandom, the firefights have been epic and brutal. Here's a hint, POI: If your fans are tearing each other to shreds, you're doing something wrong.

Shaw is indeed the Mini-Reese, but without the feelings. Root has murdered two people on camera, tortured one, kidnapped Finch twice, and threatened the most important thing in his life -- and now she's a team member, the voice of the Machine, and apparently the new hero. The fascinating background characters that gave the show real depth -- Snow, Stanton, Ingram, Grace -- have all been killed off or abandoned. Reese has become a pouty little brat, and Finch has been turned into a social butterfly – the former recluse met face-to-face with every Number in the beginning of this season, frequently for the sole purpose of filling in background information.

Almost worse than the total character disaster, though, is the fact that this show used to be so very careful about details. Everything mattered, no matter how small or insignificant it seemed. Now plot devices are simply that, and huge plot holes are simply hand-waved away. The show set out to attract the smartest, most attentive fans, and now that it has them, it insults their intelligence on a weekly basis for the convenience of the writers. It is really disheartening.

It’s pretty obvious that the aim of the reboot of POI is to attract younger viewers, to bump up the coveted demo. It was made completely plain this week when Root mocked her captive Control about her inability to hear the voice of the Machine: “You’re too old.” That seems to be exactly what POI is telling its fans. We are not writing for you anymore. You’re too old.

Disillusioned Fan
Disillusioned Fan

This is an excellent analysis of everything that has gone wrong with POI. The result of Nolan's mishandling of the format and of characters who were brilliant is now just a mishmash of sci fi, comic book characters, and camp. I think the damage is irreversible.

POI FAN
POI FAN

This article is so far off target as to be science fiction itself.  Sounds like the author is a fan of the pairing of Reese with Carter.....which was never  the centerpiece of this show.  The only complaints I have seen about this game changing story line has been from folks who pushed for that romance.

This is NOT a romance show, it is a sci-fi thriller.  Yes, it is about the relationships between the characters but they were brought together BY THE MACHINE.

Taraji has said her self that she did NOT want a 7 year contract to join a tv series. Jonah Nolan's' vision for the role he wanted her for was perfect......2-3 years tops.  The Powers that Be wanted her so bad for the part that they conceded to her requirements to get her on the show.

To rant and rave about her loss cheapens what the character brought to the storyline and dismisses the fantastic acting done by Taraji.

There have been more & more & more NEW fans flocking to this show.  They are hearing & reading the glowing reviews this season as more mainstream media catches on.  They are following Jonah's vision for the show & the storyline.  The addition of Amy Acker & Sarah Shahi has brought more fans into the mix.

To even hint that the writers jumped the shark is really just using a 'hot bottom' phrase just to get people to hit this site, in my humble opinion of course.

Disillusioned Fan
Disillusioned Fan

@Just a fan Please do not infer that those who are dissatisfied with the current state of POI are only fans of the procedural format.  In general, I prefer serializations like 24 myself.  However, I believe so strongly in well written characters that I feel Nolan has foisted a bait and switch on his devoted fans.  Season 1 was a superb example of a series at the top of its game.  The show was sophisticated, edgy, and very intelligent.  Viewers appreciated the gradual development of strong (yet inherently flawed), realistic characters.  The use of recurring characters (Elias, Zoe, Simmons, Snow, Stanton, etc.) was exquisite.  This is the POI that attracted a very loyal audience...following the best pre-screening ratings ever.  All of that changed suddenly with the airing of "Relevance" and the introduction of Shaw on Feb. 21, 2013.  This poorly-written, one-dimensional, comic book character has led to the "jumping the shark" aspect that Palmer writes about here.  As Listen to the Fans mentioned, now all the characters seem flat.  And when Carter was killed off by Nolan, that eliminated any interconnectedness that still existed.  I love complex stories with multiple arcs; I have no problem following them.  However, if POI had premiered in its present form, I never would have started watching it.  The change has been too drastic.  The "battle of the machines" is not the answer!

soldierroad
soldierroad

TPH never said that she only wanted to do 2 to 3 seasons. She said that she did not want to be on a show for 7 seasons. 2.5 seasons is MUCH less than 7 seasons. Also, it was said that the writers planned to kill Carter before TPH was even cast in the role. @Just a fan 

Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

@Just a fan I believe most people started watching the show for the quality of the characters and their interrelationships/  NOT SHIPS.  Even Harold's relationship with the machine was portrayed as very special back in the days when he was teaching it. (Father/son)  And where is Reese's strong conviction that Harold is his only friend and his loyalty?  That's dried up.   The show has lost that quality.  It's lost characters that we can care about because of how strongly they care about each other and people in general.  Since the introduction of comic book, quasi cat woman Shaw, the characters have all flattened out.  Give people characters they can care about, and they will watch your show.  Either Nolan doesn't believe this or he's forgotten it.

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

@UnaTv shows are all about it's characters. People turn in week after week to see what happens to them. That's pretty clear seeing all the backlash over Carter being killed and the lack of screen time for Reese. Season 1 was outstanding starting with the pilot. The writing was excellent and the stories diverse. I agree that the scene with Finch in the vault was great but Shaw and "hammertime" pretty much offset it. 

Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

@Una No one is talking about a procedural show, but we would like one with characters we can believe in and actually care about.  Nolan's stripped the show of those.

Maggie133
Maggie133

@This article is garbage Sorry, but i think your post is absolutely embarrasing.

If you are one of the so called "real fans" of this show then i guess it has already jumped the shark!

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

@This article is garbageIf you're going to call it garbage please back it up with some actual thoughts.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

Nolan and his huge ego?  He created the show you claim to have loved! That's like saying "Oh, that painting you were working on was great yesterday, why would you possibly keep painting on it when I loved how it was?" 


The only new group this season is Vigilance. Every other group in these episodes were established as early as Season 1 (except for Decima who came into play over half of season 2). So there's nothing new here, just several plots coming to a head. The last two eps have even been about a number! Art had to be saved, and he happened to have history with Finch. 


People will see what they want, but wild claims of what the show isn't when it definitely has been are just getting to be too much.

TraceyHampton
TraceyHampton

@POI FANSorry why are you saying that? Taraji was told by nolan her character would be killed but he decided last year in feb 2013 he personally flew to new york an told her so if you read  the articles he repeated it  over and over again ... that the time shaw was brought in . so she just spun his story for people who are loyal fan not to jump ship .Also on wed 1/15/2013 nolan  and plageman an cbs exec nina tassler was at media event.  an he said the same thing she didn't quit she was written out of the POI so please dont say she left or ask to leave for other project she was still doing them while starring on POI. get your fact straight

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

@POI FANWhere does he talk about any kind of romance??? You are so off the mark if you think people are upset with the show because of that. And FYI-it has NEVER been a sci-fi thriller. Never. And please show me the new viewers. The ratings have not changed. As for Sarah Shahi-every comment I see on every board praising her is followed by "she's so hot." That says it all.

Rose
Rose

@POI FAN  Also, this comment: "To rant and rave about her loss cheapens what the character brought to the storyline and dismisses the fantastic acting done by Taraji."


How exactly?  Plenty of viewers cared about her character; it's a tribute to the work she did that people still miss Carter.

Rose
Rose

@POI FAN There's NOTHING in this article about a Carter and Reese romance. There's nothing about romance at all.


I'd love to read your criticism of WHAT WAS ACTUALLY STATED in this article, rather than "Only romance fans hate the new direction and new fans are showing up all the time."


As for actual numbers of viewers: the demographics are not trending up.

Lininohio
Lininohio

@POI FANCan you show, using ratings and numbers, where the "
more & more & more NEW fans" are? Because the numbers have been pretty much flat since "Relevance".

JamiP35
JamiP35

@POI FAN Please reference the part of the article that states the reporter is a Carter/Reese 'shipper'.   I seriously doubt a well-known journalist would even be aware of such a 'phrase'.   I think he was merely stating the fact that Carter's death should have moved the series forward but has, instead, left it's original fans stumbling in the dark, wondering where the direction of the show is headed.


Stop acting like you are the official spokesperson for the POI television series.  Your opinion is just that, one opinion in thousands.  You have no more inside knowledge of what the Producers are attempting than any of the rest of us.


As to the 'new' fans coming to the show.   I highly suspect these numbers to signify those from other countries who are just now getting the First Season of POI and who would not be attracted to the well-written, character-driven show. 


I wonder what a few months will bring when they see how POI has changed, and why.


POI can survive the death of a major character but only if it pulls it's head out of it's ass and goes back to it's original concept of well-written, taunt scripts with interesting people we actually want to see 'saved'.   It has to make us care about what is happening on the screen.   So far, the last shows have failed dismally in that aspect, but then..that is just MY opinion..for what it's worth.   See?  We all have one.   And mine is no more meaningful than another, just like your's, so stop believing it is.

Maggie133
Maggie133

I already was wondering how long it lasts until the NOLAN FANGIRLS took over here.

Well there you are.

You know, not everyone loves this new direction and as hard it is for you to believe that even if you are not a Carter and Reese fan, some people still think this show has jumped the shark and so do i....!!

Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

@Disillusioned Fan Exactly!  The battle of the machines is not the answer because the machines are not characters we care about.  The machine that Finch was teaching back in the early episode was a character we could care about because it "acted" as if it cared about Finch.  Nolan doesn't seem to grasp that in order for people to care about a character, the character has to care about people.  Shaw doesn't, as evidenced by her reaction to her father's death and her blowing the top floor off an apartment complex in Relevance just to kill the bad guys with nary a thought to the innocent lives that her debris might have killed.  Since Shaw was introduced, the other characters including the machine have lost their personalities.  POI is now like trying to haul a truckload of garbage on flat tires--something I don't care to watch.

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

@Disillusioned Fan I completely agree. They could have continued on as they originally did but instead of the Elias and HR stories/arcs they could have instead focused on the fight for the machine. Personally I was glad to see the HR story come to an end although I have always loved Elias. Near the end of season 2 they added the unnecessary Shaw and separated Carter from the team by having her go off on her own to fight HR. Since then there's been a growing disconnect between the characters and it was their relationships and interactions (not to be confused with SHIPS)  that made the show great. I don't see why that had to suffer in order to draw more focus on the machine story. The death of Carter was just the culmination of that building disconnect.  

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

Actually a lot of people are talking about the procedural part of the show and how it should be about the numbers (in their opinion). We obviously cared about Carter, with all the backlash we've seen from that. And the last 3 eps have been non-traditional eps (one being about tracking the killer down, the other two happening with the group split in half) - it will probably be another couple episodes until things get back to normal enough to really see what the difference is.

This article is garbage
This article is garbage

@JJHorton1234 What would be the point? You all seem pretty determined to bash the show just because it is not what you want anymore. Just quit watching and don't waste your time writing articles about it. Find another show that's more to your liking. If you like prodecural shows better, TV has plenty to offer.

Person of Interest is great because it's never dull. It adds new characters to keep the stories moving forward. Killing Carter was a bold move but not a wrong one. It keeps the show alive, it makes you understand that none of them are safe. You can only cheat death so many times before it catches up with you. Her death was very well played. Having her save John after bringing HR to justice was great. And seeing the consequences of her loss on the others is very interesting.

Now of course if she was the only reason you watched the show, you're sad and angry. Then stop watching and switch to something else instead of spreading venom about this amazing show.

LT
LT

Thank you, Jennifer. ;) Unfortunately, I haven't racked up nearly enough responses to people I disagree with about the show so you win the title of THE super fan. Going to watch Downton Abbey. Have fun!

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

@JenniferGorman Jennifer I wish I had all the time in the world you seem to have to stalk every criticism out in cyberland. I'm starting to think you're employed by Jonathan Nolan or perhaps you're just a psychotic fan. Either way it's not healthy. Anywho-yes like I said HUGE EGO. There was an interview recently where Nolan and Plageman laughed about how it was their show and they'd do whatever they want. Nolan also talked about how it was his job to inflict emotional war on the viewers. He was laughing while saying this. Yes it's his show and he can do whatever he likes but expect consequences. I watch tv shows for entertainment. Not for some jackass rich producer to mess around with me for fun. As for the storyline-it has most certainly changed direction from earlier seasons. In a post on FB you said you watched the prior seasons back to back on dvd-perhaps that's why you don't see the change like a lot of viewers have. I've watched since the pilot aired in Sept 2011 and the vibe of the show is not the same. Yes shows evolve over time but that doesn't mean the original premise should go away. For 2 years the story about "the machine" was on the back burner. It was the B story 
and we got maybe 10 mins of it each week. The show focused on the POI of the week and the character and relationship building of the 4 characters. We also had a story arc going on in the background (Elias, HR,etc.) All of a sudden near the end of season 2 Shaw appears. (To this day she adds absolutely nothing to the show except that she adds eye candy to all the guys watching.) Now in season 3 the main focus is the battle of the machines. I know that the machine is what drives the show but there's a huge difference between a machine that spits out numbers and an AI that talks through people. I hate scifi. Hate it with a passion and this show was never originally marketed as that. I also hate what they did with Carter. I've yet to comprehend what Nolan was thinking. Her death added nothing to the show except that it's alienated a huge chunk of viewers. I'll admit I'm bitter about her death but I would love to know what the reasoning was because it makes zero sense to me. This week's episode was beyond ludicrous. My husband (who works in IT and loves all that tech stuff) said "this is awful." It was SO over the top. I want to love it I really do but the show is a mess.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

People forget that just because people aren't crying foul and threatening to never watch the show again that they don't miss Carter. I miss Carter. I thought she was great. I was blown away with what happened - even shed some tears over it. But I also understand that she's gone and that the show progresses from there. She was a valued member of the team and will be missed. Her legacy is how her parting affects the team. Her legacy is in her mourning friends and family. Her legacy is in how Fusco chose to arrest Simmons rather than execute him. Her legacy isn't people kicking  and screaming over a month later that she has to somehow end up miraculously alive and shoe-horned back into the show to the detriment of any sort of logical progression. I feel that's what POI Fan was trying to get at at least.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

Well, there must be new viewers - if POI has been so upsetting people have stopped watching, and the ratings have been flat, either it's all a bunch of scare tactics or there are new people watching the show to make up for those abandoning it. 

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

Nolan Fangirls - eh? Interesting choice, but I have to admit off the top of my  head I'm not sure I could name something else the creator has made before. So it's not very accurate. What you could call us are people who enjoy intelligent television and don't want to watch the same episode over and over and to see that choices made in the show have actual concequences. 


CBS is full of shows that you can just pick up and watch because they can't vary from their basic formula. Now that you see POI isn't one of those shows, feel free to pick one them up instead - shouldn't be hard to catch up.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

First, holy crap I hate this blog. The reply feature is maddening.


Anyway, back on point - if you want to argue that the ratings took a dip on the back third of season two, (which i honestly haven't gone to look at) it's odd to blame that just on Shaw since 16, 22, and 23 she had big parts in, but the rest, at most, she had a token part (if any at all) in the eps. So if the numbers support it, it'd do more to support a "the show's changed too much" argument rather than a "Shaw is the root of all POI evil" argument. 
Regardless, the ratings for season 3, while lower (see previous argument of timeslot jump earlier) it's not a steady stream of viewer loss to support a "Shaw makes POI bleed viewers" arguement. Or even a general "POI is getting worse and worse" since (again) the ratings don't vary all that much this season.  


And this will have to be my last post tonight at least since the website will neither accept less than 4 posts from me at a time nor seem to let me delete them either /sigh


Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

@JenniferGorman If you look at the ratings from the second half of season two--after the Relevance episode, you will notice that they began to drop from that point on....long before the time slot change.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

@Lininohio To clarify - that's the first time I've cited the timeslot in discussion of the show, but since it does have direct relevance on ratings, it remains pertinent, and is no less untrue - if timeslots didn't matter, networks would not shift shows. CBS moved POI because they knew it was strong and would bring viewers to it's 10pm slot on Tuesdays. And it did, and is doing great in the slot. So the point stands. On the eyecandy note, the thing I was surprised with when following POI more on social media - the amount of comments on how sexy Reese is, how people tune in each week for Reese, just look at a post with a pic of Reese, and you'll find a lot of women commenting how Reese and his good looks are main reasons for tuning in. I was surprised, I guess. So while I'm actually quite against the objectification of women, I'm also not ignorant enough to think that Either Shahi or POI are in a position to be groundbreakers in what is pretty much the norm in Hollywood. And since women have been apparently drooling over Reese for 3 years, I'm not going to fall for hypocrisy and claim it's wrong for men to do it to Shaw now.  

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

@Lininohio To clarify - that's the first time I've cited the timeslot in discussion of the show, but since it does have direct relevance on ratings, it remains pertinent, and is no less untrue - if timeslots didn't matter, networks would not shift shows. CBS moved POI because they knew it was strong and would bring viewers to it's 10pm slot on Tuesdays. And it did, and is doing great in the slot. So the point stands. On the eyecandy note, the thing I was surprised with when following POI more on social media - the amount of comments on how sexy Reese is, how people tune in each week for Reese, just look at a post with a pic of Reese, and you'll find a lot of women commenting how Reese and his good looks are main reasons for tuning in. I was surprised, I guess. So while I'm actually quite against the objectification of women, I'm also not ignorant enough to think that Either Shahi or POI are in a position to be groundbreakers in what is pretty much the norm in Hollywood. And since women have been apparently drooling over Reese for 3 years, I'm not going to fall for hypocrisy and claim it's wrong for men to do it to Shaw now.  - See more at: http://www.palmerreport.com/news/person-interest-jumps-shark-season-three-can-land-feet/15319/#sthash.L9N9xjsb.dpuf

Lininohio
Lininohio

@JenniferGorman Oh, yes, please tell us again how it's all about the time slot. 

The fact is that they brought in Shahi to draw the demo and the results are NOT showing in the live ratings (the ones that advertisers and therefore networks care about.) The demo number has been stagnant or dropping ever since she came to the show. 

And now, the promo for the next episode is all about her breasts. Lovely. You want to see what we're concerned about? Go look at the salacious comments and mostly-nude likes in the comments on the official POI FB page. This used to be a show for intelligent viewers. Now it's going to revolve around Nolan's Catwoman. You want to complain about how many procedurals there are on network TV? How many T&A shows are there? Because that's where POI is headed. 


JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

I assume you're completely ignoring the fact that they also moved to a time slot on a completely different day and a later time? It's doing great in it's current time slot - even had the highest rating for it's time slot in the key demographic during a recent new episode. Rating are not a problem here. If you've been reading comments by fans, you'll see more people complaining that it's hard to watching something that airs so late than complaining about other issues people are claiming the show has.


Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

If you are the fan that you claim to be, you would be concerned about what this "new direction" has done to the ratings. They have dropped dramatically since the introduction of Shaw.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

 I'm amused at your name "Listen to the fans". That implies those of us who enjoy what's going on in the show aren't fans. Can't say I agree with that, as I'm a HUGE POI fan. Also the ratings, the ever-increasing FB 'likes' as well as the positive press it's getting due to POI's eerily accurate comparison to actual news these days would indicate the fans are actually happy with the show. Feel free to share your opinion, just don't claim to be speaking for all fans, or that those who don't agree with you aren't fans.

Listen to the fans
Listen to the fans

@This article is garbage @JJHorton1234 If predictable plots, stereotypical, comic book characters, clichéd actions and lines and bad acting isn't boring to you, then watch away; but don't expect the fans who loved the exciting show given us in the pilot to keep silent.  We were avid fans at one time and are very disappointed with the show as it is now.

Post Script
Post Script

@This article is garbage@JJHorton1234 

The problem is that there' s no enjoying awful characters.  Shaw is that in every sense of the word, and Root is getting there.  Sorry, I gave it may chances. and its failed every time since they've started down this cursed path.    

This article is garbage
This article is garbage

@JJHorton1234 Did I say anything about realism? No. I don't waste my time discussing this any further as you've made your opinion pretty clear and I could go on and on about mine.


If you're still watching for the characters that you like, fine, but you should try to keep an open mind and be a little less reluctant to embrace new characters and new aspects. You'd enjoy it more.

JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

The realism angle is crap. Do you really believe that was their thinking? Shaw is the most unrealistic comic book character and her antics are laughable at best. So yeah I don't believe for a second it was done to insert realism into the show. I'm not going to stop watching right now and go away. I love Fusco and Finch. But I won't hesitate to state my opinion.

JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

I'm not a big sci-fi fan myself, (or high fantasy) but when a story works, I watch. So far this season was mostly about HR/Carter. The last couple were pretty solidly machine related (though technically still a number ep). Not much more I can say about the fact the show's been leading up to this, and disregarding the signs isn't the same as them not being there at all.  Again, if people don't like it, that's fine, but it doesn't make the show wrong.


And I'm going to have to just move on with the people vilifying that interview with Nolan and Plagueman. Two guys who love the show they're doing and are excited about following their ideas through regardless of people that freak out about changes, personally I love a story that has vision. The plot is the backbone. The machine offers a solid backbone, room to grow. "Saving a person a week" isn't something meant to go the distance and still be compelling television. But I see people don't get that.


And no worries, I'm the first one to put out there that I enjoy the show a bit more than can be considered healthy. But my walls aren't covered in pictures and I don't really follow any behind the scenes/director/writer talks all that much, I just limit myself to commenting on pages :)


JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

I wrote "new group". People are upset with the machine storyline (even though it was technically a number-related episode like most of the show). People are talking about how the storyline's come out of nowhere and it's not like POI at all. I'm just clarifying that all of these groups are established since before this season.


Shaw also technically predates this season slightly (episode 16 season 2) but as she's not a 'group' she wasn't relating to the previous post I made. If people want to dislike the new characters, that's fine - it's their prerogative.
Not liking the stories about the machine, that's you're opinion and i have no issues with it. But telling me the show isn't about the machine and that these episodes came out of nowhere, it's just plain incorrect if you've watched more than a handful of episodes. They return to machine-basted story lines several time each season - and both season finales have been directly related to the machine. 


Your opinion is to not like the story?  Fine, and I'll have my opinion to disagree with it. But to say these episodes do not relate to the show, it's not opinion, is just wrong based on the show's history.


JenniferGorman
JenniferGorman

I'd have to watch again to be sure - ep after she died, Fusco referred to her name specifically. And the next ep I believe he did so again at the bar. So that's two of the 3 eps (and the 3rd really was just a continuation anyways).  But seriously, nitpicking is never what it's about.  How many times do they have to say her name? Reese is in still actively morning her, so it's not like they need to state the obvious (also, he's not much of a bromance sharer to just sit and gush about her to Fusco). And Shaw and Finch are back on the case. So they should drop a "If Carter was here she'd..." or "Man, good thing Carter isn't about to die with us in this room" kind of thing? Just don't see how they could have done much this soon without it being awkward.


JJHorton1234
JJHorton1234

@JenniferGorman Legacy? They won't even say her name any more on the show. When Fusco and Reese were talking everything was "she" or "her." I doubt we'll ever hear "Carter" mentioned again.